mind body connection

The Biology of Social Connection

The Biology of Social Connection with Dr. Brad Bongiovanni

Dr. Trevor Cates: Welcome to The Spa Dr. Podcast. I am Dr. Trevor Cates. There is a lot of talk about the mind body connection. But do you know much about the science and physiology behind it? Have you heard of our love hormone, oxytocin? Do you feel you have lost connection and purpose? In today’s podcast, we cover all of this and more to help you deepen your sense of wellbeing. My guest is Dr. Brad Bongivanni who is also called Dr. B by his former patients and Dr. Love by those who know his work. After over 20 years practicing as a Naturopathic Physician Dr. Bongiovanni now works with executives, leaders, and change makers worldwide, helping them to experience love, purpose, and connection in their own life so they can authentically share their experience and lessons with their tribe. This helps create a ripple effect to maximize the impact of deepening wellbeing for even more people. Dr. Bongiovanni Is an award winning professional and corporate speaker has a TEDx talk and has been on ABC, NBC, and Fox affiliates talking about his expertise of the biology of social connection. In today’s interview, we talk about what true wellbeing is and how we can remove the blocks to achieving it. So please enjoy this interview. Brad is so great to have you on The Spa Dr. podcast. Welcome.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Thank you. So happy to be here. Very excited. There’s nothing more that I love talking about then what we are about to talk about today.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Right. And you, you and I went to school together many years ago.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Many moons ago.

Dr. Trevor Cates: And you have taken a different turn, you are not in clinical practice anymore. You did a TEDx talk recently. You have got this important message that you have learned about from seeing patients, right?

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Yes. I, after 22 years in patient care, I decided to pivot and really impact more people, I think what I want to do, because after two decades I have learned a few lessons that I would like to share with your tribe and your viewers today about what’s underneath a healthy lifestyle and that foundation that I have learned from my own patients really needs to be set before we can really start to build this house of true and deep wellbeing.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yes. So let’s figure out what that is. Because I know how true this is because so often patients will come in and they will try every diet, every supplement, they would say they have done it all. And there is this foundation that you are talking about that really does need to be in place for complete healing to occur. people can get 50% better, 60%, maybe even 80% better, but to get fully healed, there is a missing piece that a lot of people are missing out on.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: I mean, it’s amazing watching patients with the same conditions, and the same history, the same symptoms. And why is it that some patients really get better faster than others and not only the quickness, but the ease of which they regained their health again and after 20 years of watching. this and observing and then going back into the literature as a doctor too, to figure out what explains all of this. It really is setting a foundation that gets missed a lot even though there’s great amounts of research, like very robust research out of places like Harvard, places like University of Michigan, and more that have already published what is the foundation and how important and how really not even important, but how medically powerful is it in comparison to other things that we hear about all the time. So I want to make sure we bring those things back to the forefront for patients, but also for other doctors that might be listening too.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Okay. So what is that foundation?

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Well, okay, let’s start at the beginning. So, I am a big proponent of using the word wellbeing. Over the word wellness. I don’t know about you, but I lost the taste for the word wellness because it has been so diluted. It means to me nothing anymore. Because insurance companies are adopting that jargon and conventional medicines are adopting that jargon. You see drug commercials on TV talking about wellness, it’s like completely diluted. But I really feel like wellbeing is what we all want. We all want to feel good in our body, have energy, feel connected, feel valued, feel on purpose, feel alive. And we have got to talk about what we want. And that’s why we go to the doctor. We’re going to the doctor because we have symptoms. But it is because of what those symptoms are preventing us from having in our life. Better connections, better intimacy, more money, whatever it may be for you. Just the ability to have the energy to enjoy your time with your family instead of being exhausted. Those are why we go to the doctor. So if we peel this back a little bit, right? You and I know stress and inflammation underlie almost all chronic disease. So how do we take advantage of that? How do we bio hack the stress access and the inflammatory access, while there are ways to do it using things like love or oxytocin, which we will get into, and purpose in life and connection. So those are the foundations that really need to be in place so that we can really take advantage of the science, the way the human physiology works to reduce stress, reduce inflammation, improve our wellbeing, improve our health, and also in the process live longer with more vitality and more independence as we age. So that is what I want to chat about today. So a little bit deeper with you. Oxytocin and love what that means and purpose and connection and it, how do we bring it all together.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Right. And we are, as a society, we are living longer, but we want our bodies and our minds to keep up with all of the lengthening of the age. We want to continue to enjoy the quality of life. Right? So this is so important. So can you tell everybody what oxytocin is and why it’s so important?

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Okay. So most people I think have heard of that word, oxytocin before. It’s a neuropeptide or euro hormone. It is produced in the brain, most of us related to childbirth because that’s what causes that feeling of bonding, that feeling of trust and connection and bonding. But oxytocin really has effects on our stress response. So just think of it this way. Oxytocin is a hormone that has a very strong anti-stress response. We can peel that back and talk about medical pathophysiology stuff. But we won’t, just know that oxytocin is produced in our brain. It is produced when we feel trust and connection. And so we have to think about what are those things in our life that cause us to feel that way? So that we can have more and more and more. What we are going to end up doing is really downshifting our stress response. And as we downshift our stress response, you and I know so many things improve, no matter what your symptoms are, whether they are asthma, or skin, psoriasis or headaches or migraines or mood disorders. I mean, the list goes on and on about the relationship between cortisol and stress and those, those symptoms or those conditions. So how do we take back control and what we can control? And oxytocin is one of those things.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Well, I think this is so important too, because with skin problems, so many people in my audience, listeners are struggling with skin or have struggled with skin problems and they both cause stress and are triggered by stress. So, like you mentioned, stress and inflammation, and I call it skin-flammation when that internal inflammation shows up on the skin. So again, this is so important for skin, but overall health, and it totally makes sense what you’re saying about oxytocin because as you mentioned, it is that hormone that is released when women give birth and helps them kind of forget all the pain that they just went through, all that stress response and actually be able to totally fall in love with and connect with their baby. It is such an innate thing as a human that we need for survival. I think a lot of times people think of it as a woman’s hormone. But men have it too, right?

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Men have it too. And if you read anything about oxytocin, you will read a lot about sex inevitably, because oxytocin is released, kissing and hugging and cuddling and romantic connection, orgasm, right? But it is more than that also. Oxytocin can be released for men or for women. Oxytocin is actually shown to be released when you go to a shooting range and shoot guns. Oxytocin’s shown to be released when you ride a roller coaster. So oxytocin is really associated with those experiences. For anybody that causes you or me or somebody else to feel alive, to feel exhilarated, to feel connected, to feel vibrant, to feel like that was amazing. And so it could be laughter, it could be music, it could be a lot of things, which is not gender specific. And my whole wonderful piece of my messages is, we have got a lot to learn. To identify what are our oxytocin, what does mine, what is yours, what is Aunt Susie’s. It doesn’t matter. And we all need to worry about what makes me feel connected alive, exhilarated, just so wonderful. And it can be anything really. And how do we carve out more of our day, our schedule, our life to make sure we are pushing, pushing, pushing our own oxytocin buttons.

Dr. Trevor Cates: There are a couple of questions this brings up for you. Is there a genetic component to this where like some people release oxytocin more than others or differently or triggered by different things. And the other is what about dopamine and serotonin? Because I think a lot of times people think of those types of exhilarating things as more to those neurotransmitters.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: They’re all interconnected. So first there are what you would call genetic mutations, right? Snips that are associated with the oxytocin receptor or the gene that codes for the oxytocin receptor and there are genetic impairments in your oxytocin receptor that some people may have and that other people may not have. Unfortunately those are not ready for prime time. They are used in the research setting, which is very interesting to read about, but they are not something that doctors yet can just order for a patient. Just like we wouldn’t order MTHFR mutation analysis or something like that. But yes, there are genetic predispositions and mutations associated with that. And your second question was serotonin. And there is a big interrelationship with those because, especially with dopamine, because oxytocin will sort of traverse the same neural pathways alongside and parallel with a lot of the dopaminergic reward pathways. And so again, this is not far fetched. We’ve heard of the connection, No pun intended, which people who are addicted. And this concept that addiction stems from a lack of connection and they are trying to stimulate that lack of connection through their addiction of choice. But when we stimulate oxytocin, we also are stimulating dopaminergic neurons, which cause, ding, ding, ding, that feeling of a pleasant reward. And so those two things do travel together. The other neurotransmitters that are associated with oxytocin that people should understand. Oxytocin is anti-stress. It will help raise gaba levels or stimulate those gaba neurons. And it will also weaken or suppress glutaminergic neurons which are excitatory and associated with mood disorders. So, there is a lot of orchestration and beauty in the symphony of neurotransmission that oxytocin you can take advantage of because like I said, you can choose to do things that stimulate your oxytocin buttons and therefore be more intentional about really creating a sense of wellbeing in your life.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Right. And I know that you can do oxytocin nasal spray, like with a compounding pharmacy, but what you are talking about is actually doing things, like support. This is certainly totally Naturopathic. Support your body with any ability to heal, by removing the obstacles to healing. And so what are some of the things that we can do to naturally boost our oxytocin without having to take it as a nasal spray?

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Yes. So the things that we know are physical connection, hugging, kissing, obviously things like sexual activity and orgasm, but beyond that, laughing, spending time with really good friends, listening to music that really moves you. It doesn’t matter what kind of music it is, ever music that moves you. Like I said, going to a shooting range has been shown to increase oxytocin, riding roller coasters has been shown to increase oxytocin and those are some of the more unique things that you can do. Oh, one that I also forgot is interesting, which again, you are not going to be surprised about, but there are certain probiotics that have been shown in not just animal studies but in human studies to actually promote oxytocin release. Promote oxytocin, release in food, bacterial metabolites. But then of course gut brain, brain gut, those bacterial metabolites talk to the brain and initiate our own release of oxytocin. So again, you know, we love gut-brain help, right? Gut brain access discussions, but it is real. We have to take care of our microbiome, of our gut. And that’s another way that we can understand why gut health is so important. I mean, there’s so many reasons, not just in our gut, but because of the guts relationship to our stress response in our brain.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yes. And then connecting another dot, is the gut, brain, skin access. The skin microbiome and it all ties in together. And here we are again, the importance of tying all this in and the gut is such a key component of that. Can you explain to people a little bit more about that gut brain connection for people who haven’t heard about that, explain why that is so important and how it plays into neurochemistry. Because it is so far apart. Like how is that possible?

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Yes. I mean really think of it as first of all, your gut is also called your second brain because about 80% of your nervous system is actually in your gut versus your brain. Okay. So now how do they communicate? It’s very simple, really. There is a nerve called the Vagus nerve that goes from your brain and innervates your gut. And the wonderful thing for people to understand is the brain talks to the gut via this big old nerve highway and the gut talks to the brain. So there is this loop of directional communication going on. And we know people who have been diagnosed, you know, things like IBS and their anxiety flares their IBS, they’ve got symptoms and also their gut symptoms can also flare anxiety. So the gut is the center of disease. And it’s also the center of health, including all the way out through our skin, our brain, our bones, our lungs. There is really nothing that our gut doesn’t impact and it is what I want people to really understand is, a lot of neurotransmitters and things that we think come out of our brain, like serotonin, dopamine, a lot of those neurotransmitters are also manufactured in our gut. Okay. And then they distribute it out into the bloodstream or through the nervous system, back up from our gut. Our gut nervous system, into our central nervous system. So you cannot escape the gut, which is why it’s important to understand what food we are putting in, how stress acts, what kind of microbes are affecting the gut, what kind of infections as our immune system tries to resolve that may be hidden or chronic or elusive. All of these things really just make our gut health so paramount, especially as it relates to disarming our stress response because as we, again, everything can be driven back to if we want a life of health, we are free from chronic disease. You have got to lower stress and the effects of stress over time and we have got to lower inflammation and keep inflammation levels low over time. And the gut plays a huge role in that.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Right. And you did mention inflammation in the beginning as being one of the key underlying causes. And so what you are talking about is the gut and healing the gut and addressing the gut microbiome that is a really good way to help with inflammation.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Of course. Yes.

Dr. Trevor Cates: And then with oxytocin, one of the things that helps with, is connection. Let’s talk about the importance of connection. What have you found on that?

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: So let’s make sure we talk about connection and then let’s make sure we talk about purpose too. So connection. This is my favorite line that I love to say. Will the real vitamin C please stand up and the real vitamin C is connection. Connection is probably one of those three love of purpose of connection in terms of driving deep wellbeing, connection in terms of its relationship to chronic disease and stress, maybe the most powerful. So there are mortality risks by data that have come out of the University of Michigan and places like Harvard that have clearly shown all the things that lower our risk for death and help us live longer. We know about exercise, we know about obesity, we know about nicotine and alcohol and exercise, but guess what, the one at the top of the list with the best or most significant impact of all of the risk factors looked at, is connection. Is the quality and the extent of our social networks. I am not seeing commercials on TV about connection. I am seeing commercials on TV about this drug, that drug or the other drug. I want people to understand this is very, very biological. So all the way back to our genes, there is a whole field of medicine, which you probably know. Your viewership probably does not know that there is a whole field of medicine called social genomics. It is what happens to our genes under different social circumstances. So what they have found is that there is a clear connection of feeling socially lonely or socially isolated and that has a direct impact on our genes. And the opposite is true. When we feel socially connected, certain genes turn on certain genes, turn off those genes that happen to be heavily related to stress and inflammation, and the immune system and cytokines and all of those things. So this is like mind blowing because just our social connections can impact what our genes are doing and on, off inflammation, on off. So we have got to take advantage of that and we’ve got to take advantage of making sure we know how we feel connected. It’s not about having a thousand friends, it’s about having to fill in the blank number of friends where you feel valued, you feel like you belong, you feel like they get you. These are my people. For some people that’s two people. It is all they need. Other people, it is a hundred. It doesn’t matter. It is just what makes you feel like you have people that have your back that you can be real with. You don’t have to edit yourself, that you can rely on when the chips are down and where you are valued and acknowledged and appreciated. So that is what we are trying to get people to take a look at their own lives. And are you really feeling connected when you check your Facebook account and your Instagram account and your Twitter account? Now I use social media, but I also realize that is not where I feel connected. I feel connected when I spend time with people I love and trust and laugh with and have fun with. So over the last few years, I have really dedicated a lot of time and effort to making sure that piece of my life is in place.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yes. That is so beautiful. I love creating community and I think it is something that people say is one of my super powers , I like creating communities and doing that, like curating groups and stuff. So when people have that sense of connection, I love this. And what I found is that it is so important to have that in-person time and we are spending so much time on social media and on our computers working from home or working digitally and the online space. And it is important too. understand how it all plays together. I personally find that like the Facebook groups and these smaller communities online help kind of fill in the gaps a little bit when maybe you can’t always see these people that you really love to be with. But I find that when I go into the Facebook groups that it kind of rekindles those feelings of like, Oh, this is my tribe, these are my people. At the same time I still have to see them in person occasionally. And so it is an interesting balance of figuring out, like you said, each person is different and what kind of in-person connection you need versus how you can use the good side of the virtual space.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Yeah. I don’t think it is black and white. I think there are gray areas and I think everyone experiences things differently. So you laid that out very well in terms of your experience of some of the Facebook groups that you are involved with, whether you are just in them or leading them, makes you feel good, makes you feel like if I can’t be there with them in person, at least I can be there with them digitally or virtually. And you still experience the same good, healthy, connected, valued, like you are contributing or you are being contributed to feelings. And that is at the end of the day, that is all that matters. It doesn’t matter how we get there, in my opinion, it just matters that we get there.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. So what are tips that you have for people to help build that connection if people don’t have it?

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: I think you have got to start, look at where you are, look at yourself and really ask yourself very just personal questions. Like if I didn’t have to justify anything to anyone, like what would really make me feel good or what have been those situations like sort of audit backwards my life where I have felt really like I belonged. People understood me or I felt valued and really just started to dissect what those things were for you. That is really the most important thing. And then you have to start making a commitment that you are going to choose and start with one thing that you could let go or that you want to get back, that you know would make you feel good and just start committing to that. And I think what you will find is that it will start having more of a ripple effect. So first is really just looking at yourself and knowing what works for you. Don’t worry about anybody else. Just what works for me, what works for me to make me feel connected.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. That is fantastic. I do think it is really important. I do think that we are seeing a lot of mental health issues, a lot of depression, anxiety for people, young people too. And it seems like it certainly in Park City, it is a real issue with the teens here. The kids have depression. And I think a lot of that has to do with this lack of real connection and they are on their devices too much, their phones and things too much and not getting a real sense of connection. They feel like it is sort of like a connection, but it is not a real connection.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Yeah. I mean I am a parent of two teenagers and it’s a different world, right. Then what we grew up in and so I am still as a parent learning how do I navigate this? Because of course we see it in them that they are on their phones and the way they communicate is all virtually. You know, kids don’t even like to actually talk on the phone. They just like to text something or snap chat you know, inside of a chat or whatever. So we have to understand we do live in a new world, but I think we just have to make sure that balance, and balance like old fashioned naturopathic stuff. Like, just get out and take your shoes off and go for a walk with no shoes on and roll in the grass and breathe some fresh air, go for a hike. And I think sports are actually a really good option, although not every kid is going to be attracted to sports, but because they are moving, they are socializing, they are actually engaging. And it gets them off their freaking phone for like an hour or two hours or whatever they are doing. But it could be other activities too. So I don’t have the answer for that, but I think just ensuring we don’t completely isolate into this totally virtual world, which I think is at the root of a lot of young people’s distress and stress, and anxiety and depression and addiction. We just have to go back to the more simple structure. Who are you? Where do you feel good? What is your purpose? And how do we get you feeling like you feel valued and connected again.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Right. Because the phone, the way that it is often used, it ties into addictive patterns. It is an addiction. Like you were saying, what drives people to addiction is that lack of connection, lack of love, lack of purpose. And it ties into the gut, brain, neurotransmitters, all of us. So let’s talk about purpose because I think this is a really important one too, because that was one of the reasons why when I was seeing patients, I still see patients, and I was seeing patients years ago, I started to feel like something was missing, both for me personally and for my patients. Like they would follow a program, a diet program or something and then fall off of it. Then supplements, they would stop taking it and then they would go back to their old patterns. And I thought, what is this? And I realized that for me, I ended up going back to school, went to University of Santa Monica and got a spiritual degree, a Masters Degree in Spiritual Psychology to really help understand the sense of purpose and connection. So I am looking forward to what you found to be particularly helpful when it comes to a sense of purpose.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: First my mind was really blown about what science is telling us, medical science about purpose. I mean, they are looking at these things over decades and showing us and publishing this, it just doesn’t get a lot of media attention I think. You mentioned it very early on in our conversation. Not only do we want to age longer, but we want to age longer and enjoy our golden years. We worked so hard to get to retirement, not to get sick and not to be tired and achy and be unable to travel and enjoy things. But we work so hard so that we can enjoy the last act, the last chapter of our life and purpose is clearly, clearly shown to do two things, medically extend our life and also improve the vitality and preserve our physical function as we age. I don’t know if they have identified the biological reasons that explain that. They just know that there is this association there. And so it made me realize how important that is. If I am talking to patients about trying to get them, well, I don’t want to get them well for three months. I don’t want to get them well for six months. I want to get them well for the rest of their life. I would be remiss if I was not talking to them about how much purpose they feel, how clear do they feel on their purpose? And it doesn’t have to be for purposes, it can be evolved. They can evolve, they can be dynamic and it can be fluid. But we should make every attempt we can to be clear about what it is at any stage of our life. Your purpose at 20 is probably going to look different when you are 30 or 40 or 60. And that is okay. But just having that clarity of this is why I am here. This is why I get up. This is why I do what I do. And having that sense of clarity, there are ways to do it. There are ways you can, you can hire a purpose coach. You can hire a life coach, can hire a career coach. There are Ted talks on how to find your purpose that you can answer five questions and kind of stimulate that discovery process. But doing it and really putting it out at the center. It’s like your compass. How do you know where you are going, your purpose serves as your GPS or your compass. And I love it because it clearly has a beneficial medical effect on us.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: So ask your doctor if purpose could be right for you. Don’t ask your doctor about the purple pill, ask your doctor if purpose could be right for you.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Well, and it’s true when you talk about longevity, and healthy aging. If when people retire at a certain age, sometimes they lose their sense of purpose because their life has been so dedicated to that job. They retire and it’s like they are just sort of checked out. So I do talk to my patients about, okay, so you are retiring from your job, but what is it that is going to get you up and excited and I will have you know, a lot of times, especially in Park City, people are like, well, I am going to travel the world and I am going go do this and this. But there are so many people that forget. What happens, I think is that people identify themselves with their job and then the next step, they don’t have any sense of purpose in it.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Yeah. And I don’t know about you, but I am just not good at superficial conversation. I can do it, but I don’t really enjoy it. And so what you were just saying makes me feel like let’s talk about things that matter. Like yes, if you’re retiring, there’s things you want to do. Totally makes sense. But if you have not still either asked yourself yet or asked yourself, well what is my purpose now that I have all this freedom because of retirement? I mean at the end of the day when you are on your deathbed at some point, I mean don’t you want to know why you did everything and what kind of a legacy you left and did I leave the world better than I found it? And whatever it is for you, I think that’s what I want to talk about. And some people are thinking about it and some people are not thinking about it, but they will think about it if we open up the conversation with them.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. So true. And what I am noticing about the millennials and the younger generations is that this sense of purpose is very important to them. And it is really beautiful to see their jobs or their career paths from a sense of purpose and there are some kids that don’t want to go to college because what they really want is to be called to do something rather than just spend a lot of money when I don’t know yet what I want to do. And it’s really interesting to see this shift and it is exciting to see.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Yeah. And I have been amazed, just even in this last year of learning how much the workforce is changing, right? Millennial workforce is sort of growing and the baby boomer workforce is diminishing. And employers are having to modernize their thought process because millennials and younger workforce people in that demographic. They are not driven by money, which gives me hope. They are driven by what is important in life; they don’t want to work a thousand hours a week. They want to have work life balance. They want to work for an employer that recognizes their own wellbeing and not just their value as a worker, but their value as a human being. So that there is a lot going on, and in corporate America to understand this and to foster this and to support this. And I feel like every corporation should have a Chief Naturopathic Officer as part of their C-suite basically.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. And it is interesting to see it all unfolding. Well Brad, it has been so interesting having this conversation with you and where we have gone with this. Anything else that you want to share with our audience to kind of bring all of these aspects together for that important foundation for wellbeing and also tell everybody where they can find out more about you. And if you have a free gift for our audience too.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Ok, I will try to remember all that. Well, one, you can find me on drbradbongiovanni.com And I do have a free gift for your tribe. And it really is step one, which is if you want to sort of take an inventory of where you are with oxytocin and love, and purpose and clarity and authentic connection in your life, I have a very easy downloadable kind of PDF inventory process that I can share with your people. So they can get it at my site, they can also get it at The Spa Dr. podcast page. And I want to say that, you know the old, I don’t know if you are too young for this, but back in the 80s, you know, the hair club for men commercials. Like I am the president, but I’m also a client. I mean I am a doctor and I am also a champion of wellbeing, but I am also a human being. And I have been through all of this, and I have looked at my life, I have looked at these areas, I have taken action, I have moved my home. I have retired from private practice because my purpose has evolved. And I want to have a bigger impact. My wife and I have taken a look at what our social network looks like? How can we strengthen that and make it more meaningful to us? And now what I want to do is, you know, yes, I am always going to be a doctor. That’s what I kind of do. Or what I did, but who I am is having these conversations and really encouraging people to explore and take action on deepening and installing this real sense of true wellbeing. And it has to be architected. The first step is take the inventory, but then it has to be architected. How does this look for you? What do the blueprints look like? How are we going to get you to your destination, which only you can define. But that is such a rewarding thing for me that I would love the opportunity to start sort of helping people do that more in their own lives.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Perfect. You did that beautifully. Pulled it all in together. And I think it is so true that when we are following our purpose and we just feel right on track with it, we can help other people along the way. Like you and I, we love that. We love helping others and kind of learning ourselves and guiding other people. So thank you for everything that you are doing. Thanks for coming on.

Dr. Brad Bongiovanni: Thank you for having me. It was so fun and I love talking about this stuff. I appreciate the opportunity to share it.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. Thank you Brad. I hope you enjoyed this interview today with Dr. Brad Bongiovanni and that you got some great tips to help improve your sense of wellbeing. To learn more about him and to grab that free gift that he mentioned, you can go to TheSpaDr.com, Go to the podcast page with his interview and you will find all the information and links there. And while you are there I invite you to join The Spa Dr. Community so you don’t miss any of our upcoming shows. And if you haven’t already taken our skin personality type quiz, you can go to theskinquiz.com and find out what messages your skin is trying to tell you about your health and your stress level and what you can do about it. Just go to theskinquiz.com. Also The Spa Doctor is on social media. We are on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and Pinterest, so you can join the conversation there and I will see you next time on The Spa Dr. Podcast.