sun protection

Tips For Choosing Natural Sunscreen

Dr. Trevor Cates: Welcome to The Spa Dr. Podcast. I am Dr. Trevor Cates. On today’s podcast we are talking about how to choose the best natural sunscreen for your skin, your health and the environment. My guest is Katie Kimball, who has been a blogger since 2009 at Kitchen Stewardship. She has been helping families stay healthy. As part of her natural living quest, she and her four kids and her sensitive skin husband have personally tested over 100 different sunscreens.

Dr. Trevor Cates: She has built a reputation for being an excellent source of information on sunscreen reviews in the natural living world. When they are not AB testing sunscreens, her kids are learning to cook and inspire their generation with the kids cooking real food eCourse. In today’s podcast interview, Katie shares what she looked for when testing over 100 sun screens with her family and what she learned along the way, and we cover the best and worst ingredients for sun protection, your health and the environment. And we even share our top favorite sunscreen brands. So please enjoy this interview.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Katie is great to have you on The Spa Dr. podcast. Welcome.

Katie Kimball: Well, thank you. I’m honored to be here. I geek out on sunscreen. So it’s fun to get to talk about it.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yes, you definitely have been geeking out on sunscreen. You have been spending a lot of time on that so I wanted to have you on the podcast because this is something we get asked all the time. Safe sunscreens, what chemical ingredients to avoid or what to avoid entirely, what to include. Let’s dive into this, but first, why did you become so passionate about this?

Katie Kimball: I started blogging in 2009 and I’d always been sort of an environmentally conscious kid. One of my favorite books as an elementary student was 50 things kids can do to save the earth. And that was before it was actually like a popular thing to do. I always have so much to learn. As a young mom with one toddler, I was slathering chemical sunscreen on him every day with his clothes in his diaper. That was part of our routine.

Katie Kimball: And in 2010, as they started learning about the dangers of those ingredients, I was just devastated with my former choices. We can only do what we know at the time. In 2010 I looked at EWG, the environmental working group, and they only had 40 sunscreens at the time that were rated one or two that were rated really safe. And I had this thought, what if I could get my hands on all of them? What if I could try them all?

Katie Kimball: Because it’s great to have ratings, but they are just like academic ratings based on the ingredients and safety, nobody actually knows if they go on like whiteout or paint drying, or lotion, I thought, what if there was someone in the field who was actually trying on a real family. That first summer I got 28 of the 40 and it’s just sort of snowballed since then every summer adding between four and 20 brands.

Katie Kimball: And now my poor family, we are at 120 ish mineral sunscreen brands that we’ve tried. My kids, they don’t even know how to put on sunscreen. If it’s not side AB testing with two different brands on to see what happens.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yes. I have ordered a lot of different sun lotions, and every year I have to clear them out, throw them out because of the ones that have expired or that are just too pasty or somehow some sort of toxic ingredients that kind of snuck into our cabinet, and from one of my teen kids putting something in there. It really is not just what’s in the ingredients because that’s a big part of it, but how does it truly protect your skin?

Dr. Trevor Cates: And of course, all of these have an SPF on it and it has to go through certain testing with the FDA approval and all of that. But also, how does it feel? What’s the experience like, especially when you are putting them on your face? I got one recently, it was a tinted version and it was really natural. I love the ingredients.

Dr. Trevor Cates: I put it on, it was super pasty. Then the next day I immediately had like little white heads popping up, completely clogging my pores. And so that one’s done. It is really great that you have tested all these different ones. What, what exactly are you looking for when you are testing these?

Katie Kimball: Yup. We always write down who is wearing what so that we remember and I ask my kids right away. What do you think, how does it smell? How does it, how does it feel going on? There are some Trevor where you put them on and it is impossible to rub it in. I call it white out drying, like it is drying too quickly almost to even to rub it in. Those get demerit points immediately. We look for even something as simple as overwintering.

Katie Kimball: Can it last a winter in the cupboard without completely separating or solidifying in the case of sticks? Consistency, we look for waterproofness, I’ll try to say, okay, kids jump into the pool and then show me your arms. Sometimes you can see it just beading up. You are like a duck. Alright, that I assume will stay on in water really well.

Katie Kimball: Then we look at the side A B testing, because we are looking for burns. If anybody does burn, if they burn on one side and not the other, I have a data point, that A side is not doing as well. And then you knock it down on the list. Out of that 120, I only have usually in any given year between six to 12 that are in my highly recommended status because I’m so picky. If there are brands with absolutely perfectly clean ingredients, why would I go with anything other than that?

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah, absolutely. Just to be clear, everyone, these are not peer reviewed, double blind placebo controlled studies. We are talking about Katie just doing this with her kids. There is definitely science behind this, but it is not a typical study exactly.

Katie Kimball: Not lab testing or field testing. It is the mom on the ground saying, don’t buy this one, even though it might work to protect from burns because it doesn’t go on well, or it gets in the kids’ eyes or whatever.

Dr. Trevor Cates: But I love this and I think it is important because there is practicality to this and it is confusing though. Can you explain to people about the SPF process, how these things are approved? I’m sure you have learned a lot about this along the way.

Katie Kimball: I have, yep. I have interviewed a lot of sunscreen formulators. I have gotten on the phone with old school guys who are like, yeah, I was around in the eighties when the highest SPF was four. And I have just been soaking up all this knowledge over the last 10 years. SPF is an important number, but very, very confusing. Because SPF 30 protects from about 96 point something percent SPF 50 is only about 97%.

Katie Kimball: Although you think you are getting considerably more protection, when we think numerically 30 to 50, it should be a grand difference, and then to 50 to 70 or 75 or 80, which they sell you. You feel like you are so much more protected when you are getting like a half percent more protection.

Katie Kimball: And that’s why those SPF numbers can be really dangerous. The FDA has considered capping it at 50. They haven’t taken the leap yet. They tend to take about 20 years to make a decision. I am not holding my breath, but those SPF 80 and a hundred, they are dangerous because they make people feel like they are wearing a black tarp, which means they stay in the sun longer and they reapply less often.

Katie Kimball: They are probably getting way too much sun exposure, especially as those sunscreens degrade, because they are chemical sunscreens. You are never going to get a zinc sunscreen at an 80 or a hundred SPF because you would look like Casper, the friendly ghost, a hundred percent certainty. The other really tricky thing about SPF is that it’s only rating the UVB protection. We have UVA, UVB and UVC rays.

Katie Kimball: UVA, this is one I am sure your audience talks a lot about because that’s the aging damaged skin, sun damage as well as some cancers. UVB is what you see in the burns immediately, as well as some cancers. Until 2014, honestly, the SPF numbers only looked at UVB. Brands were only required to test high for UVB. At that time, anything before 2014, most likely your sunscreen was not protecting you at all from UVA because it is different.

Katie Kimball: When we are talking about petrochemical sunscreen ingredients, it’s actually different ingredients that are going to protect from the different rays of the sun. That is the reason I love zinc oxide because it is the only FDA approved sunscreen ingredient, chemical or mineral that protects from both UVA UVB, broad spectrum in a well balanced way.

Katie Kimball: If we have sunscreen formulators, using petrochemical sunscreen ingredients, they have to figure out their own balance. They have to figure out the balance of it. How protectant that sunscreen is going to be from UVB, which again is signified by the SPF tested by the FDA. It is very official. Then they have to figure out how well they are going to balance that UVA protection. That is much less regulated.

Katie Kimball: If you have an SPF 80 or a hundred, which I think are criminal, there is a good chance your UVA protection is not as strong as your UVB. You are not going to see the problem the next day. You are not going to think you bought a bum sunscreen because you don’t see that immediate burn, but the long term skin damage is most likely happening at an alarming rate.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. That is a really important one too, because it is that little bit of damage every day. You are driving your car, you have your hands on the steering wheel. The tops of your hands are getting all of that. Even if you are not getting a burn, you are getting sun damage on your hands, your face, through the window, all of that.

Dr. Trevor Cates: I think a lot of people don’t think about that. Their skin is not changing immediately or within a day or the color doesn’t show up. Then they think that nothing is happening. This is so important. I think a lot more sunscreens are saying UVA and UVB protection, and it will actually say that on the label if they have that added protection, right?

Katie Kimball: Yes, that is true. And since 2014 that has been required. It is just that the balance, the amount or powerfulness of the UVA protection isn’t as regulated as the UVB. Because there is not a number right now. UVB is the SPF.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Okay. When we talk about safe sunscreens, there are two different areas that we are talking about. There is the environmental impact, and then there is also the human health impact. As a naturopathic physician, I focus a lot on the human health impact on it because that is my priority. But of course we want to do things.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Usually when you protect human health, you are also protecting the environment, but not necessarily. Let’s start with the environmental impact and there has been a lot of intention on reef safe. Can you explain to everybody, what are the concerns about the environmental impact of sunscreens and what you’ve learned about?

Katie Kimball: Yeah. Luckily in this case, human safety and reef safety is very synonymous. When we say one, we say the other, that is a good thing. Just a few years ago, Haereticus labs, powered by Dr. Craig Downs, did some research that proved that two sunscreen ingredients, oxybenzone and octinoxate were causing coral reef bleaching. And bleaching it is like near death. It is nearly dead for a coral reef.

Katie Kimball: Now we’ve lost 50% of the great barrier reef in just the last 10 years. It’s predicted that if we don’t change what we’re doing as humans to impact the oceans, that we will lose 90% of the coral reefs by 2050, that is not good. Obviously the coral reefs are where most Marine life is housed in. It would be a massive devastation to the ecosystem and thousands and thousands of tons of sunscreen wash off human bodies into the ocean every year.

Katie Kimball: That doesn’t just include if you live near an ocean, that includes 37 States in the Midwest, that all run off to the Gulf of Mexico. Even if you are deep in the middle of the land, it is still definitely a problem even for the reefs. Also, triclosan is in a lot of sunscreens and parabens are in a lot of sunscreens. Those are pegged for some problems with Marine life as well.

Katie Kimball: Oxybenzone and octinoxate are the two chemical sunscreen ingredients that are banned in Hawaii, which is very exciting that there is legislation that goes into effect in 2021. You won’t be able to bring chemical sunscreens into Hawaii. You won’t be able to buy them there. I get so frustrated about this because this law has opened up a whole new sphere of greenwashing.

Katie Kimball: Where the big brands are taking out only those two ingredients, figuring out how to rebalance their formulas with all chemical ingredients still and marketing them as reef friendly is the term you’ll see on the front of the tube. People going to Hawaii are oh, great, reef friendly, I am doing the right thing.

Katie Kimball: Then in Hawaii, snorkel captains and people who are close to the reefs will gather the bottles and go, sorry, you can’t bring this on my boat. I know it is within the law, but it is still not good enough because they know that those other chemical sunscreens most likely are doing the same thing, the same problem. It just hasn’t been proven yet.

Katie Kimball: That is a bummer. Because you used to be able to see reef safe and think great, I have found a safe sunscreen. Now there are tons that are saying reef friendly and they are completely chemically based.

Dr. Trevor Cates: You mentioned other chemical sunscreen ingredients, but there are others like avobenzone, is that one not safe for reefs as well, or are there other ones that have chemical ingredients that we think that might be okay?

Katie Kimball: Right. Avobenzone again, hasn’t been proven yet, the research isn’t there yet. Avobenzone is the one chemical sunscreen ingredient that has been protected from UVA. That has been interesting with me watching things over the last 10 years before 2014, I never saw Avobenzone. I didn’t know what it was. In 2014, the FDA said, Hey, Whoa, my goodness, you all better start protecting us from UVA as well.

Katie Kimball: Now everybody has Avobenzone, and guess what problems that causes. It might not be killing the coral reefs. It might be, we don’t know yet, but it actually stains your laundry. The stains don’t show up until they are washed with soap and it looks like rust stains. Isn’t that a bummer? So, I mean, at least for your laundry habits, skip the Avobenzone.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Okay. Well, it has to be used in combination because it provides the UVB protection. Then you have to use other chemical sunscreens. But, you are saying we really need to stay away from the chemical sunscreens, at least for environmental reasons and then focus on more of the mineral sunblocks.

Dr. Trevor Cates: When we talk about mineral sunblocks, we are mostly talking about zinc oxide, but there are other mineral ingredients that are used in some mineral sunblocks. Can you talk more about that?

Katie Kimball: Sure thing. When we talk about mineral based sunscreens, there are two ingredients. Zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. Both are FDA approved, both are broad spectrum, titanium dioxide is just more unbalanced. It provides more UVB than UVA. When I see a sunscreen that only has titanium dioxide, I’m like, Oh, that might not be as balanced as you want it to be.

Katie Kimball: Typically you will see them in tandem or you will see only zinc oxide. I tend towards zinc oxide for a couple reasons. One it’s FDA approved, even for kids under six months. This is what is in your traditional baby diaper cream. It is just incredibly safe. Titanium dioxide being a heavy metal, has some potential risks because of that.

Katie Kimball: Since zinc oxide is already broad spectrum protective, I just stick with zinc, but I wouldn’t throw away something of mine if it had titanium dioxide. Because sometimes the inclusion of titanium can cause it to be a much nicer feel, a much more clear look. If you are going, especially for ladies faces, that is an easy, small concession to make.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Okay. When it comes to an environmental impact, they are both going to be the same or is there any concern about titanium dioxide for environmental impact?

Katie Kimball: Environmental impact is safe.

Dr. Trevor Cates: They are both safe, you said?

Katie Kimball: Yep.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Great. We were talking a lot about the environmental impact and reef safety. I’m glad you cleared that up. Let’s talk more about the health impact. Because we are putting these on our body. They don’t just sit on the outside of our skin. Some of these ingredients can get absorbed and that is both the chemical ingredients as well as mineral.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Then if something is in a spray or a powder, we can breathe in. Right? This is a lot to cover. Let’s start with the absorption on the skin, the topicals that we apply. What have you learned about these?

Katie Kimball: Absolutely. The great thing about zinc oxide is that being a mineral, as long as you, aren’t finding a brand with nanoparticles of zinc, which are under 100 nanometers, those may be absorbed, but anything other than nanoparticles is actually not absorbed. It sits on the surface of the skin. It causes more of a reflective and scattering effect with the sun.

Katie Kimball: Doesn’t really give off any byproducts, just a little bit of heat. All the chemical sunscreens on the other hand, by their nature, are chemical, they work because of a chemical reaction with the sun itself. High school chemistry, chemical reactions have byproducts. Those byproducts cause oxidative stress on and beneath the skin.

Katie Kimball: Which of course we are putting on sunscreen to prevent skin cancer, mostly, and other things too. To put on a compound that could be potentially causing cancer because of oxidative stress just seems foolish. The other reason, once we dig into the science of chemical sunscreens, is because there is a chemical reaction going on. That means they are being used up, they are degrading.

Katie Kimball: After about two hours in the sun, your chemical sunscreen isn’t working anymore to protect you. It has degraded so much. That is where we get that rule of, you must reapply every two hours. All your zinc oxide tubes will say that as well because the FDA just hasn’t differentiated it’s recommendations. It is not nearly as necessary with zinc because it is like a rock. It doesn’t go anywhere.

Katie Kimball: I tell people it is kind of like buying landscape rocks, which are more expensive at first, but they are not going to go anywhere versus mulch. Every one to two years, you have to purchase and spread that mulch again. We spread it because it is degraded into soil. Chemical sunscreen is very similar. It is degrading.

Katie Kimball: After two hours, not only are you not protected, but the chemicals are deeper and deeper in your skin creating those free radicals, causing oxidative stress. It is imperative to reapply to protect your skin from that chemical reaction continuing to happen. It is ridiculous. Just don’t use chemical sunscreen. Because first of all, it might not even be protecting you from the sun.

Katie Kimball: It might not be protecting you from skin cancer. It might cause skin cancer. Most of those chemicals have been proven to be endocrine disruptors. As a mom, with kids, I want grandkids. My kids, their poor little bodies are being bombarded with enough toxins that are estrogen mimicking and endocrine disrupting in this world. I am not going to voluntarily put it on their skin.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah, absolutely. I have used a lot of different sunblocks myself and I really like the zinc oxide ones. And you do feel that they are safe. I have had people ask me what about some of the zinc absorption, are we worried about high zinc levels, but it sounds like you are saying that the absorption is just not there, so we are not going to be really getting excess zinc, especially this form of zinc that we use in a topical isn’t necessarily the kind that we would take as a supplement.

Dr. Trevor Cates: It is a different form of zinc. Have you seen any laboratory testing that has been posted using Zinc oxide sunblocks and to see if there are any levels elevated?

Katie Kimball: Yup. I have read some studies. And again, it comes down to as long as it’s not nanoparticles. Nanoparticles do show some tendency to have some absorption and again, titanium dioxide has a little more potential to be absorbed in, then the zinc oxide and some head-to-head research studies. Again, that is why I tend to lean towards zinc and looking for non nanoparticles is a really good habit when you are reading those tubes.

Katie Kimball: The chemicals on the other hand, they are pretty immediately absorbed within hours. They show up in the bloodstream. Oxybenzone is in 97% of Americans urine. So it’s pervasive, it sticks around and is in infant cord blood. In fact, I was just reading a study this week that it was looking at three different sunscreen chemicals, again, not zinc and titanium, but the other guys and the amount of blood percentage was much higher than the FDA deems as acceptable or deems as safe.

Katie Kimball: In fact, the FDA is considering, they will take 20 years to make the decision, but they are considering removing the generally recognized as safe and effective the Gras status from all sunscreen ingredients except zinc and titanium. Because more and more of these studies are starting to come out and they are going, Oh, wow, we jumped the gun on those. Kind of typical.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. What I have read about titanium dioxide, I really think that it is better to stick with more of the zinc oxide. I do have concerns about that. You mentioned that the nanoparticles that we want to stay away from, and it should say on the label, right. What do you look for on the label?

Katie Kimball: Most of the time, and we just kind of have to trust the brands. I think most brands who are really trying to do the right thing, and they know what the right thing is. They are going to brag about being non nano because they know that people are looking for that. So definitely best to look for non nano.

Katie Kimball: If it’s not on the tube, this is where I would start digging into their website and dig as deep as I can get. Because somewhere, it’s always somewhere. And there is micronized too, which is sort of in between micronized is smaller than a normal sized particle, but larger than nanoparticles, they are thought to be safe. Again, especially for ladies’ faces and sort of something that goes on nice and clear, a lot of people will tend toward micronization in those cases.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Okay. And those are safe. That was going to be one of my next questions is to talk about the zinc oxide sunblocks. They have changed so much. It used to be that the only way you could wear them was like this white, or maybe even hot pink across your nose and your cheeks, but there are some that are way better than this now.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Why is that? I think a lot of people, that is one of the reasons why they were reaching for nanoscience, maybe because they thought that the texture would go on better. What do we look for now, as far as the user experience of having that same kind of protection. With being able to put it on our face or end up putting it over our entire children, how do we do that?

Katie Kimball: Well, and that is where I come in. Because I have touched them and worked with them and I never write up a review after just one time and quickly write up a review. We use these things for a whole summer before I will even enter them into the system. I think brands are just getting better at good emulsification. They are getting better at getting those particles of zinc suspended consistently throughout the tube.

Katie Kimball: And so that all helps. And then again, getting smaller particles, but not so small that it’s going through the skin. It is sort of the sweet spot for making them better. And there is just so much more competition, which is a great thing. I mentioned in 2010 EWG only had 40 that they recommended as safe. Now there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. There is no way I can keep up with all of them, which is wonderful. And that spirit of competition is going to raise the bar.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah, that’s so great. I want to talk about brands in a moment, but let’s go through some of these other things. You are okay with talking about brands that you like?

Katie Kimball: Oh, yes we can.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Okay, good. Because I am excited to do that. But before we go into that, a few other things. Tinted version. I am a big fan of some of these and I am wanting to see your take on it.

Katie Kimball: Yeah. And in fact, I just kind of missed the opportunity to say that is that another reason that they can go on so nicely is because of those nice light tints. It just really covers up the whitest cast that you can get sometimes. I remember my husband putting on one in particular, it was a big stick and it went on really nicely and he walked out of the bathroom and I said, honey you look like one of those buffs like an old philosopher sitting in on a library shelf, that is not a good look.

Katie Kimball: The tinted can really help tone that down. And there are so many brands that are doing a great job with tints and still using very clean ingredients. They don’t always look right on kids. They can look pretty good, even unfairly pale skin, but they look kind of funny on kids. With kids, we just put on whatever, they can’t be too aesthetically perfect. But for adults, those tints can be really nice for the face.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Right. It does. And it is nice. Do the tints add an extra layer of protection or can they?

Katie Kimball: Sometimes it depends what ingredients. I have brands that use cocoa powder to tint. Some brands use titanium dioxide as some of the tints so that it might cause more protection. But really, all of these brands are SPF rated, so it is not like you are going to get a big surprise, like, Oh wow. I bought an SPF 15 and it’s acting like a 50 and they are rated for what they are rated for.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Right. I do want to mention about the tints that there are some companies that are better than others, as far as having a variety of tints. Some of them will have one tint. It is not going to work for all skin tones and types. You have to find the right company that is going to help match if you are going to use a tinted version and really with darker skin types, you are going to want to go with a tinted version.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Because the natural whiteness of the zinc oxide is going to show up more on darker skin. With pigmentation, you want to find companies that have a wide range. Then for people that are super fair, again if you use something that is too dark, it is going to make you look funny. There is some variability with that.

Dr. Trevor Cates: That is a challenge that I have found with some of the companies is that they only have one, two or three options and that doesn’t cover everybody. That maybe covers a certain percentage of people, but not everyone.

Katie Kimball: Absolutely. I think what I have found with the cleanest ingredients and affordable prices, which is as you know, I serve families. So I am always looking for affordability. I don’t even really test out $50, two ounce tubes, which is probably where you will get more variety in the tint. There is only one brand that I know of that has different shades.

Katie Kimball: Most of them are just one. They generally are just right down the middle and if you just apply them a little bit more thinly or maybe mix them with something lighter, they look pretty. My husband is very fair skin and they always look pretty good on him. There have been some that make him look ridiculous and then we note it, and demote it if they are not working for everyone, but most of the time they work pretty well.

Katie Kimball: There are some that just go on so clear that you could easily put it on your face and then apply, as a woman, makeup foundation powder or whatever, and it is not going to interfere.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Can you mix in? And this is a little bit tricky because if it doesn’t have an SPF, then you may not want to mix it into a sunscreen or sunblock. But if it has an SPF to it, a powder with a tint that already you are using on your skin, you could blend that in. Right?

Katie Kimball: Possibly, I have never really played with that. I just put the powder on over top.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. So we have tried that in a case, and it works, but again, if you are using something that doesn’t have an SPF, I am concerned that it is going to decrease the efficacy of that. So be careful with blending. That is one thing I want to make sure that I remind people, if you start blending ingredients and different products, you are changing the SPF protection.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Let’s talk a bit about powders and sprays. What have you learned about those?

Katie Kimball: Well, first of all, there are not very many zinc oxide based sprays or mineral bases of any kind of sprays. Most of the time, if you get a spray that is zinc or titanium, it is going to be more like a squirt bottle, like you would use for a cleaning solution. You have to, you squirt it on and then you still have to rub it in. There are some that look exactly like the conventional brands.

Katie Kimball: They look like an aerosol, but it is very different in the application. I just want to warn people not to buy a mineral based spray and expect that you are going to do the thing where you just have your child stand with his back to you and you spray and then he can run off.

Dr. Trevor Cates: We don’t want people to do that for multiple reasons. But people do. I have to admit when you have kids and you have multiple kids and you are at the beach with sand on them and all of that, it is tempting to want to use the sprays. But let’s just be mindful of the fact that if you start off and put the sunblock on before they go on to the beach, that the zinc oxide ones are going to last longer anyway.

Dr. Trevor Cates: And then you just have to reapply at some point, but at least you get them covered before they even get wet or in the sand or anything.

Katie Kimball: Exactly. The zinc based do last longer. And the caveat is, if you are toweling off, if you are wiping your face, and kids, for sure when they are swimming, they are constantly wiping their face. You will still have to reapply as often with those zinc based if there is any kind of wiping going on.

Katie Kimball: Otherwise it will last all day. Honestly, we have done random testing on the next day and you can still see the zinc working like in an AB test. It does really last much longer. The big fear or the big danger with aerosolizing zinc is that as safe as zinc oxide is to sit on your skin, not safe at all for your lungs.

Katie Kimball: If there is any chance that you are breathing it in, and this is another reason why I don’t really like to recommend DIY sunscreen. Because then you are working with the powder. And if you don’t know proper safety protocol, you could be putting your own lungs in danger. The other reason I don’t recommend DIY is kind of what you talked about with the blending.

Katie Kimball: You are not going to get it FDA tested for SPF. If you have some inconsistency in the blending, you might have some SPF, like 4 over on this side of your container and 50 on this side, and who knows? I am a big fan of DIY for many, many things. Sunscreen just, isn’t one of them. You don’t really know what you are doing. I don’t like any of the mineral based sprays.

Katie Kimball: For speed and efficiency you talked about for kids, it is so tempting. A stick for faces is a godsend. It is so quick and you can put it on through the sand if you have to, and just quickly rub it in. And then, we wear sun shirts and that cuts down 75% of the work and the expense of sunscreen.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. I am getting ready to do a whitewater rafting trip with my kids. I bought us all some sun shirts and stuff, because there is just no way we are going to be able to keep up with the sunblock staying six days on the river.

Katie Kimball: Yeah. Your shoulders will thank you. I’m sure.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Lots of hats and all of that. And hats are a great thing too, of course. I always remind people that if you can plan your outdoor time in the morning and eat later in the day and just go inside and get caught up on work and maybe schoolwork and screen time, if you want that for your kids, that would be the time to do it would be the middle of the day, get them out of the sun.

Dr. Trevor Cates: So that you are at least avoiding those peak times.

Katie Kimball: Sure. Absolutely. Then of course, over the last 10 years, all the research on vitamin D has changed too. Because when my kids were tiny, that was what you said was exactly the recommendations. And now people are saying well, you also should probably get 10 minutes of unprotected sunshine right at noon for the most vitamin D synthesis in your skin.

Katie Kimball: It gets to be a lot of balancing, but I do try to get a little bit of unprotected sunshine midday for the kids if I can for vitamin D, especially here in Michigan, we do not see the sun enough. We are very vitamin D deficient as a state.

Dr. Trevor Cates: We get plenty of sun in Park City, Utah. Of course it is cold in the winter, and we are more covered up, but we are closer to the sun.

Dr. Trevor Cates: That is a good tip and vitamin D of course is important. I want to remind people that they can get their vitamin D levels tested to see if there is really a concern. 25 hydroxy vitamin D, is a lab test. You can get it done with your basic blood work and just ask your doctor to add it on. Kids can get it tested too.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Then you know if you are in the optimal range for that, and if you need to supplement, or get some more time in the sun, whatever you need to do to get those levels up, it’s a simple thing to do. It is really important with the immune system function. And we do need those vitamin D levels. Anything you want to say about powders? There is not a lot with powders, it is more around the makeup. The same thing with the sprays.

Dr. Trevor Cates: If you are breathing it in, there are concerns about it getting in those nano sized particles, getting trapped in the lung tissue and creating issues. And then of course the chemicals in sunscreen. You are going to have similar issues.

Katie Kimball: Right. Yeah powders are just tricky, but you are right. A lot of natural powders for women as makeup, includes zinc oxide, it is not even meant to be in there as an SPF factor. It’s just in there as a light colored balance on the tint. It’s worth saying hold your breath while you apply it. Because you really don’t want to be breathing that in.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Let’s talk about some of your favorite brands. I’m really curious to hear about that now. I didn’t test as many as you, but I did order a lot of different zinc oxide based sunblocks a few years ago. Throughout time, to see what we could carry on The Spa Dr. website. If people go to The Spa Dr. website, you will see that we carry a sunblock on the website.

Dr. Trevor Cates: There are two products and they meet my criteria because they are zinc oxide based and I actually use them. I have my kids use them. I have my friends use them. What do you think out of all these different ones? What do you like? And this particular brand, My Chelle, was the one that we liked the most. I am curious what your take is on that brand.

Katie Kimball: Great. Yeah, we did try that one. They are one that has the aerosol spray that looks like the conventional one, but again, all of those still go on white, still need to be rubbed, have some dangers with them. So it’s just not worth it if there is no ROI in my opinion. But yeah, we tried the MyChelle stick and that goes on very well.

Katie Kimball: I don’t know if I ever tried it in the tube, but that was definitely a brand that was up there. Some of my favorites include one called Kokua, which is formulated in Hawaii and made with seven different Hawaiian grown antioxidants, which is worth mentioning by the way, because anytime you are in the sun, even with a great sunscreen, you are always going to have some oxidative stress and some sun damage. Putting antioxidants right on your skin with your sunscreen is a great idea. That is an ingredient that I always look for.

Katie Kimball: We love Kokua. It goes on incredibly smooth, just like a lotion smells really good. Raw elements have been a favorite for years and they have tinted, they have sticks, they have tins, they have pumps, they have plastic free. They are just very, very eco-friendly and reef safe. They were founded by a lifeguard. If you fly Hawaiian air, you will get a sample of Raw Elements.

Katie Kimball: Love them. And Maelove is a little bit new to the scene. They were made by a bunch of college friends coming together from all different disciplines, like engineers and doctors and stuff. They are more of a skincare company. I call them a good transition sunscreen, because it goes on really well. Just like you would expect your conventional chemical sunscreen to, there is none of that tint at all.

Katie Kimball: A few more ingredients that I’m not like, I wouldn’t eat it. Some of the other sunscreens you could literally eat if you were stranded on a desert Island because they are so clean. But Maelove is just so up there because people will put it on and be like that was an amazing experience. I have nothing bad to say about it.

Katie Kimball: Others that I really like include Badger and that’s great because you can buy it just about anywhere. Big box stores. Thinkbaby is really good. 3rd Rock is a super unique formula. Have you ever tried 3rd Rock?

Dr. Trevor Cates: No.

Katie Kimball: Ok. It is made by a super science geek, chemist, surfer and I have talked to him for hours and I don’t even understand most of what he says. He is very intelligent. It is a very interesting texture. You have to rub it in your hands and then it goes on smooth. It was when that went on the easiest when we were all sandy and wet and messy, I think because of its unique texture.

Katie Kimball: Then Kabana is another one that I have enjoyed for years. It is formulated by a Stanford trained chemist. That is the one that has nude and peach and tint and all these different tints.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Okay. And they have tints for darker skin as well?

Katie Kimball: Yep.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Excellent. Okay. Well good to know. I actually haven’t tried any of these brands. I tried Badger and I thought it was kind of sticky. That wasn’t one of my favorites, but like you said, it’s available everywhere so it is a nice go to.

Katie Kimball: I know Badger has a ton of different formulas. They have their lotions, they have their sticks and they have changed a lot over the years. I have had to retest them because they reformulated. So it kind of depends when you tested that.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. Okay. Good to know. I know a lot of people, and I don’t really want to say bad things about any particular companies, but I know a lot of people use Sun Bum. I know they have a zinc oxide one, I haven’t looked at it closely, but what do you think, it does have fragrance. I know that.

Katie Kimball: So I just dug into Sun Bum again, because we actually went to Hawaii just before the bottom fell out of the world with the coronavirus, snuck that in. So that’s a real story about the snorkel captain, like going, oh, nope, you can’t use this one. The snorkel company had Sun Bum. I didn’t think I liked that one. So I dug into it a little more.

Katie Kimball: One of the reasons I don’t like to recommend Sun Bum is because they had a lot of chemical sunscreens and one mineral sunscreen. So I feel like that’s too confusing for people because they will remember the brand and then they will just grab it off the shelf. Without checking. I prefer to promote brands that only do the right thing, I guess.

Katie Kimball: But yes, you are right Sun Bum also had fragrance and I think there was one of their preservatives that was just on my X list as far as how it is rated at EWG. So Sun Bum, not my favorite. I have never actually tried it, but because of all those reasons I don’t really want to.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Right. Okay. There are so many and there are some good resources out there for people. What do you recommend for people to go and find out more? Then I have one more question for you. I just thought that I know my customers are going to ask you.

Katie Kimball: Yeah, sure thing. I think people should go to kitchenstewardship.com/sunscreen and just see the most up to date list, from a mom who has actually tried things, but I also include there at that same link just to download sunscreen, shopping guide. So if you are looking at a brand that I haven’t tried, here’s your criteria to evaluate it.

Katie Kimball:And luckily it’s really simple. If you just look for zinc oxide, you’re better than 95% of the sunscreens on the market, that’s easy. And then the other ingredients, it’s what your audience probably already knows. Don’t get parabens, don’t get fragrance that you don’t know what it is. Stuff like that. It is the same criteria you would use to evaluate any personal product.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Okay. So my last question is when do you apply sunscreen? That is something that my customers ask me often. When I am using The Spa Dr. skin care line, and I’m using all these other steps, and know that there are great antioxidants in our product. It does provide that protection. It is important to put those on before going into the sun, but you want to make sure you’re putting the sunblock on at the right time. So what do you suggest for people?

Katie Kimball:Well, okay, so I’m kind of a low maintenance girl. I probably don’t have quite as many layers of stuff on my face. So I defer to you for the order. I want to correct you real quick and you keep using the word sunblock. That is one of the things that I think was 2014 or 2011, that the FDA said you can’t put on a tube anymore.

Katie Kimball: You can’t actually say sunblock. Because that makes it sound like it can actually block all of the rays and that’s not possible. You can’t say waterproof, you can only say water resistant. So it’s just a nomenclature thing, but because it used to be mineral sunscreens would call them both sunblock differentiate, but they can’t do that anymore.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Okay good. Thanks for telling me that. What I usually tell people is to put the sunscreen on last. Then wash, use the cleanser, use the antioxidant serums and the really great moisturizers, let those absorb into your skin, wait until they have actually absorbed so that you’re getting the full effect of the sunscreen.

Katie Kimball: Yup. That makes perfect sense. The great thing about the mineral sunscreens is that you can use it as a daily SPF and not be worrying like, Oh, have I had two hours of sun exposure in these little 10 minute chunks because it’s just a normal day. I’m not at the beach, so do you want me to reapply and redo my makeup? That’s ridiculous. If you want to have something that’s a daily SPF to me, zinc and titanium are the only options that make sense.

Dr. Trevor Cates: Yeah. Well, Katie, thank you so much for all your information. I know I kept you on longer than I told you because there was so much to talk about and I’m sure people have other questions. Tell everybody again, what your website is, where they can find out more about you.

Katie Kimball: Sure they can find sunscreen info at kitchenstewardship.com/sunscreen.

Dr. Trevor Cates:
Okay. Perfect. Thanks again, Katie.

Katie Kimball: Oh, you’re welcome. Totally fills me up to geek out and share all this information.

Dr. Trevor Cates: I hope you enjoyed this interview today with Katie and learned some tips on how to choose the right sunscreen for your skin, your health, your family. You can learn more about her by going to TheSpaDr.Com go to the podcast page with her interview and you’ll find the information there. I also encourage you to check out Clean Skin From Within, my book, to learn more about ingredients in skincare products.

Dr. Trevor Cates: I talk in the book and the clean slate section about the top ingredients to avoid in skincare products, including some sunscreen ingredients and what healthier alternatives to use in your skin care products, because whether it’s sunscreen or it’s just your daily skincare routine, your body products, anything you want to make sure you are reducing the toxic ingredients. Then also using natural ingredients that really do help nourish your skin. And if you’re looking for more information from the inside out on how to address issues with your skin, don’t forget to take the skin quiz. If you haven’t done that already, just go to theskinquiz.com. Find out if you’re an Amber, Olivia Sage, Emmett, Heath, the skin type, and you can just go to theskinquiz.com. And I also invite you to join us on social media. The Spa Dr. Is on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube. You can join the conversation there and I’ll see you next time on The Spa Dr.